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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 28, 2005 4:48pm
Forum: etree Subject: Archive and GD - FACTS

Here are a few statements of fact, please offer your thoughts :

1. Archive.org, a federally sanctioned non-profit organization, has received, organized, and currently stores computer data files donated by members of the general public that the donors identify as historical audio recordings from 1965 to 1995 by various individual musicians performing together under the name ‘Grateful Dead’.

2. Of these various musicians only five performed on at least 80% of these recordings or for roughly as much of that 30 year period or have ever had any acknowledged moral or legal rights to any say over their content. Only four remain alive.

3. Because this content was never copyrighted/commercialized (by definition, or this dialogue would be moot) and was never held exclusively by or assigned to any particular person or entity by any of these five individuals NO ONE (NOT EVEN THEIR HEIRS AND ASSIGNS, MS. KOONS, NOR REPRESENTATIVE BUSINESS ENTITIES OF ANY SORT) has any authoritative, legal, or moral standing at law or equity to now assert control over this content (especially years and even decades after they have been in the public domain, most notoriously through an internationally-acclaimed NON-PROFIT cyber archive).

4. Other than the substance of the actual audio content there is scant evidence to substantiate the physical source of these recordings, the historical record of their creation and custody, or from whom the recordings originated. (A million DeadBases and even the most meticulous cataloging of the audio content of these recordings will never be anything but speculative since the musicians themselves admittedly neglected to maintain reliable contemporaneous records, much less exclusive custody of the content of the recordings.).

5. At this point all claims of right or stated identifications of this content are completely without valid foundation, short of the actual performers (the 4 still alive) publicly stating, recording for recording, that these are, in fact, their instruments and voices captured on time and place certain…..after all have sat together at once and listened to every solitary second and reached this conclusion enough to aver to it in binding fashion (I think they’d find it ain’t such an inherent treasure trove after all).

6. To the extent these recordings permit (by their actual sound content) the identification of unique (and thus proprietary) musical compositions it is clear that a significant and substantial amount of these compositions are not the property of the stated performers, but that of other composers or musicians. (If the music ensemble called Dark Star Orchestra performs the song Day Job who are they covering and who has the right to stop them, any more than the Dead can stop Archive). Even if you were to give them rights over songs identifiable as ‘Grateful Dead’ songs on all of these recordings, what about the 100’s of others that aren’t?

So I guess the big question here is : WHO ARE THE GRATEFUL DEAD?

WHO ARE THOSE WHO HAVE THE RIGHTFUL STANDING TO ASSERT DOMINION OVER ALL OF THIS CONTENT AND TO ORDER CESSATION OF ITS NON-COMMERCIAL....scratch that....PUBLIC SERVICE USE?

THE ONLY ANSWER, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, IS FOUR MEN NAMED MICKEY, BILL, PHIL, AND BOB.

Until these four men individually/personally or through their stated personal agents (not 3rd party companies or entities in which they hold a collective stake) publicly assert their intent to and prove their rights to take exclusive control over this content, Archive owes it to its non-profit, non-commercial values to restore the work of its countless good-faith donors of this content.

If it does not do so I believe it forfeits its moral nature as a public service organization, irrespective of any other good works it does.

In short, Archive.org owes everyone more than ‘experiments’ and cowardice in the face of a clearly dubious challenge to their very moral and courageous work for humanity and history.

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-28 11:46:41


Having read the expected nay-saying below by the faint of heart (who probably 'got theirs') I ask only for constructive comments. Some of the comments about IP law below are totally off-the-mark. Copyrights are for 'fixed content' not every conceivable live interpretation of a musical composition. Copyrights are definitionally for commercial protections, not all uses conceivable. Copyrights have to be vigorously protected by the claimed holder, CONTINUOUSLY AFTER THE CREATION OF THE CONTENT....NOT DECADES LATER.

If the Dead were like the Eagles or Steely San where what you hear live is word for word and note for note what they copyrighted then the individual below could be correct. But the Dead (and more importantly, all of these recordings) were NOT that and that's why we're here in the first place.

And the below author totally skipped the question about the tons of content over which the dead do not have copyrights.

Further,I posit no legal challenge to anyone, just a call for the status quo before a totally illegitimate demand was made of archive by murky, un-named entities.

Finally, I like this 'hobby' just fine, friends.....it is worth the effort.

FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM - Join the list!


This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 00:48:54

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Poster: Bugz Date: Nov 28, 2005 3:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

wow - here here and hooray

I don't have the legal expertise to weigh all the points you make but it does feel right;

but, it still is a sad day when we come to something like this

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Poster: davidbarfield Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

no lawyer here, so i cannot comment directly on the validiity legally. although i was always under the impression that a particular (audience) recording is a the legal copyright of the recordist. that does not imply that it can be used commercially, but that by allowing recording of a concert (as the gd did for many years) an artist is giving up legal claim to that particular recording with respect to its non-commercial distrubution.. the only aspect that remains intact is that it cannot be sold. yes? so that the trading of it via post office or internet or by pony express is a moot point as these are simply modes of sharing and not a question of commercial endeavor.

but i ramble ingnorantly...for me, the issue is personal and not legal. the famous quote from garcia re: "when we're done with it, they can have it" points to the issue directly. for all of those years when there was a sanctioned taper section, the gd were, by their own actions, setting up a culture of trading, documenting, collecting, etc ...that culminated in the desire of all to collect. there was no other parallel anywhere in music. so as it turn out: they used tapers to stimulate the interest in collecting it and then tell them go fork youselves. "we'll take it over from here!" it would be one thing if the gdp/m said that no sbds could be downloaded--certainly understandable. but to take away the ability for recordists share their efforts with the rest of the community, makes the notion of a grateful dead "community" nothing more than a load of [mod]. that community, to the extent that it existed is now officially over. without tapers, there would be no dick's picks, is my point. hrumph.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-28 13:16:57

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Nov 28, 2005 8:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

The DEAD were on 60 MINUTES 2 after the 2004 tour. Even that late in history, they were bragging about letting people record their live shows...

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Poster: ScooterD35 Date: Nov 28, 2005 3:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

You really need to find another hobby.

The reality is that the "content" is legally copyrighted in the form of the songs themselves and what can and can't be done with them is controlled by the holder('s) of those copyrights. While it certainly would be amusing to see you try to take up a legal challenge such as you seem to be suggesting. It would be a colossal waste of your time and money. What's left of the Grateful Dead own the legal rights to their music neither you nor anyone else would stand a chance trying to force them to give it away for free.


For my part, if it becomes possible to log onto a Dead-controlled web-site and DL the show of my choice for 5 or 6 bucks I'll probably be inclined to pony-up on a fairly regular basis. If however the only option becomes 10 - 20 bucks per show, I'll probably just copy what my friends have and let them copy what I have and wait around till the rest of the band die off at which point I expect the rules will change again.


Scooter

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Poster: tgvas Date: Nov 28, 2005 4:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Great, but I don't believe the Dead Members will change their minds until their Shows become a room of empty seats!

Meanwhile, we have to all work together to get the music back to Fans, and the way to do that is to bring it all together, Meaning...........the people, like myself who have had the chance to download quite a bit, need to do some serious trading, and then, bring it all online, free, to the fans.

Archieve.org has been a wonderful place, a great bunch of people who did what they could, LET's KEEP them alive thru donations and participation, but as for the dead, let's just push it on through and get the music out.

Bobby, Phil, Mick and Bill have forgotten what made them all wealthy, it was Jerry's values and plan to give the music away while making them all rich.

Now, it's time we all woke up, Jerry has gone home, it's up to the fans to keep his dream alive. legally, honestly and with drive and determination!

Anyone who has downloads, Flacs and Shns, let's get it together, TRADE TRADE TRADE!

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Poster: hjl1450 Date: Nov 28, 2005 9:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG....I've been listening to shows non-stop since last week just trying to get my mind off of all this negative energy....I miss the good old days, before say last Wednesday...

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Poster: tgvas Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

First off, LMA, is a wonderful and dedicated group of people who gave us the music FREE, and never asked for donation.

What we should all do for them is to give what we can in order that LMA lives on, and maybe, one day, GD will decide to give it all back for download.

As for Jerry's music, seperate from the band, he gave it all away freely, until he died, then DEBRA took over and closed the doors to trading anything related to Jerry.

Never liked her, never will, Mountain Girl would have found a way to share it freely as well as make $$ for herself, she's sharp as a tack and many times the women Debra is, GOD bless her.

What is happening here is, an attitude that when Debra took over, we all gasped in disblief, OUTRAGEOUS, but now we have forgotten that shameful act, the lawsuite etc, and the no one remembers how Phil and Bobby felt back then, ashamed that Debra had taken the music, and NOW........they are doing exactly what they drew their noses up about when Jerry's widow did it.

It's all about $$, Greed, and the fact that when jerry died the music disassembled, the spirit got spit on and the guys forgot the reason they became rich and famous to begin with!

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Poster: caspersvapors Date: Nov 29, 2005 5:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

you know at first I was against GD removing the sbds from this site. After a lot of thought though I actually agree with their decision, those sbds (unlike the aud recordings) are rightfully their's. To me it sounds like all these people complaining are just butthurt because they no longer get a handout.

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Poster: gra8tful_al Date: Nov 29, 2005 6:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Casper....too close to the vapors...open da vindow....

The GD was about the music...the presence or absence of a 1/4" plug should in NO WAY change what's been available for > 40 years...a hot show is a hot show.....the sound quality....just the lumpy gravy for the bitchin' potatoes!

I'm a big believer in all economics...including those rendering my job obsolete.......

I don't appreciate that 'these' recordings are still Jerry-Available....OK, but 'those' aren't. I'm grateful....over the last 1-2 years I was able to replace many unlistenable tapes with some fine quality tunes....

It would suck beyond all comprehension that 10 years after we lost The Fat Man that the remainder of 'The Family' thinks pursuing this is a "Good Thing".

On Behalf of the Grateful Dead Community ...if times are that tight....get into tele-marketing....PLEASE leave us alone!

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Poster: tgvas Date: Nov 29, 2005 8:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

well said

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Poster: humandonkey Date: Nov 29, 2005 9:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

just adding to the already heavy fog over this scene...
the day I came home and realised that GD shows were no longer available here, I was truly SHATTERED. now, I am a fully-grown, gnarly, bearded freak, but as my wife can attest, I was nearly in tears. it really is'nt so much that I feel this entitlement to these shows, but a huge appealling quality to me about the dead is that they were such an overwhelmingly well documented band. the obsessive collector/music freak in me was completely fascinated by this when I first discovered this band... christ, try scoring quicksilver sbds, or amon duul sbds, or hawkwind sbds, or groundhogs sbds.... good fucking luck, man. I was blown away by this aspect of the dead, and I loved that I could constantly morph my obsession from one "era" of the band to the other and never get bored(thanks to the archive). the notion that this can no longer occur is cause for me to be very sad. i'm sure that the same can be said for other gnarly bearded types, and non-beardos as well. also, I enjoyed very much turning the younger cats on to the dead, and the easiest way to do it was to refer them to the archive with a list of dates and telling them to go to town... while the youngsters still can get turned on, this format made it much easier, if you dig... I hope that this bad decision is somehow reversed by "the band & their mgmt.", but i'm not too sure that i'll hold my breath... i'm already turning blue.

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Poster: laptaper Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Damn, man! You want a hair shirt and a bell to ring to go with that rant?

Copyright exists at the moment of creation, whether it's been registered or not. I know this having registered music of my own with the Copyright Office. "Copyright" means just that - the right to copy. Again, also, the Dead have not said we could not trade SBDs, they've just removed the easiest access to them. There are still tons of other options, bittorrent, usenet, FTP, Furthernet, trading CDs and .shns by s-mail - hell, I amassed hundreds of Dead shows just answering ads in Relix and emailing people I met on the old Dead Flames newsgroup.

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Ok, Mr. Happy. You made your point.

We know whom with you stand by your previous posts.

Again, everyone.....productive replies, please.

[accidental-click duplicate was deleted; so contextless remark pruned here. mod]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-28 13:45:12

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Poster: laptaper Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

That was an unintentional error in posting - not sure whether it was caused by my browser hanging or a database glitch. In any case, I was trying to delete one of them but can't now because you replied to it. Oh, well.

BTW, my attitude is not because I've "gotten mine". I have shared before, often doing B&Ps, and will do so again.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: duplicate posts

I got rid of the other one, no worries! It happens to people occasionally, not sure why.

Edit: Hah! I just duplicated the error for the first time in thousands of my posts, by stopping the loading while it was posting and hitting submit a second time. So, folks should avoid hitting the button more than once.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-28 13:55:52

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: duplicate posts

[The heck with] B & P!!!!
Postage doesn't cost enough for me to expect the recipient to pay for it!!! Nor do Blank Cdr's.... $?$?$
How about you send it to me for free,then i'll send you something of equal or lesser value for free!!! That's the way i traded in the 80's..Mostly from ads in Relix and Unbroken Chain Magazines.....
Peace

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 12:57:39

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 29, 2005 7:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: duplicate posts

If I wanted ti say "THE HECK WITH",I would have...Please stop the ridiculus censoring!!!!

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Poster: laptaper Date: Nov 30, 2005 3:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: duplicate posts

I'm not sure what your problem is with B&Ps. I've always been glad to do them for people who need help starting their own collections. There have also been times when I either didn't have the time or inclination to increase my own collection, but was happy to help others do so - B&P was a good avenue for that.

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 30, 2005 5:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: duplicate posts

Not really a problem forsay,i just miss the days when you could actually trust strangers to send you something on their honor...B&P is something i do,i just ...I guess i was just rambling and didn't really know what i was saying{stoner:-)}
GBTGD and GBTIMA
Peace

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Poster: jcroot Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

I take it "productive" means any posts in agreement with your original legal brief?

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Yes, thank you.

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Poster: jcroot Date: Nov 28, 2005 10:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

gosh what an interesting discussion. why is it greed for the band members to want to regain some control of their music, but not greed when you want that same music for free? the music is still free, you just can't download soundboards from the archive. there's a whole network of traders already set up on etree why not use it?

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Poster: tgvas Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

jcroot - If Jerry were still here, would this be happening?

Answer---NO, it would not!

We all became dead heads and fans, not just for the music, but for the spirit it was delivered.
That spirit was to spread it around, for free, trade, TAPE and record, and it has been that way since the beginning.

If the current Band Members wish to change it all, fine, it is their right, but the spirit of free trade tape and recording existed till November 21st 2005, and as far as I am convcerned, everything up to then should continue to be freely traded.

We can all agree to disagree on this, what will happen however, will be when the Band members see a degrading attendence at their shows to the point of bankruptcy, and that is when they will realize, removing this music was a mistake!

Let's face it, none of the band members has a great voice, none are what I would call the best of the best musicians, we all love them, not just because of the sound, but because of the attitude,

When jerry passed most of their musical talent left, along with music writting and our center, now the band has taken away the rest!

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Poster: gra8tful_al Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Jerry would be PISSED!!

Wasn't he the one who commented about "being done with the music once we've played the notes..."?

Anxiously awaiting Dick's Picks volume 24,344

Annoyed and Disappointed in Naperville IL

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Poster: weatherreportsuite Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

I'm so upset about this whole thing - they violated us without warning! I have been listening to Grateful Dead almost all the time for the past 4+ years (yes, a late deadhead). Now, I have spent $1000s on DVDs, CDs, merchandise, concerts, books, and I'm even in a GD cover band!! I became a bigger fan every day. Archive was invaluable for checking out different versions of songs, especially from a keyboard player's approach. I didn't need to download every show, but it was helpful for practicing.

I am so upset, I cannot even think about playing any Grateful Dead music. I bought a few shirts from the GD Store the Friday before D-Day - I'm returning them!! I've already signed up on Live365 radio to "cleanse" myself. I'm not sure how I'll proceed with GD - I am truly heartbroken. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise.

If Jerry did not die of a heart attack, he would die from a broken heart.

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Poster: gra8tful_al Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Hey Now....

Nothing but agreement from this-here corner of Dead_Land...I've been an avid fan for decades, and wholeheartedly agree...Jerry would be PISSED!!!!!!!!!

I'd like toe whole quote in context, but I remember reading something about him..."once we play the music, we're done with it..." or something to that effect.

Kids...what, exactly has changed?

Are we all just relegated to Dick's Picks Volume 36(23)?

Annoyed In Naperville IL

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Poster: brenodo Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Well, I can see that the move to an iTunes model is, well, helpful for iTunes, and most likely the wave of the future for music purchase, but what's up with pulling the audience recordings ?

I understand the removal of Soundboard recordings if and when a comercial release of that same show is announced, some would disagree, but I don't. But why the audience recordings ?

I'm not against the old "snail mail" way of trading, but it's the 21st centry, we should be able to use the internet for these type of trades...

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Poster: weatherreportsuite Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Thanks for the info, Diana.

Yes - I see how they want to keep the SBDs, but why all the audience tapes - that's the fans!!!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS due in a few days?

According to Rolling Stone today, "An official statement from the Grateful Dead camp is expected in the next few days." Perhaps we'll know more then.

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Poster: jcroot Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

what was garcia's taping and trading policy for the garcia solo bands? again, you can still trade with other people directly, you just can't download soundboards off the archive. does everybody have the same anger at musicians who never allowed taping and trading in the first place? should we boycott neil young because he doesn't allow taping, or dylan? in the end, this all seems to be a lot more about getting free soundboards conveniently than about some moral ethos that has now been shattered. no one's been betrayed, just inconvenienced. put another way, if the band came out and said we don't want anybody to download free soundboards anymore but didn't ask the archive to stop hosting and left it up to individuals' consciences, would we be seeing all this shouting?

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

How about this.....it is safe to say that no one ever showed lack of appreciation for the formerly generous policy of Grateful Dead (the band we once knew, not their present 'corporate successors'). Quite the contrary, in fact.....1000's of people put their heart, soul, time, and energy bringing together this amazing body of work to complement the performers' work.....a collection unparalleled in the history of music, I dare say.

It's not about 'ethos', but definitely about ethics (or lack of them). The GD aren't the only ones who made all of this happen....and now they want to negate all of the good-faith work of people who made most of this collection happen (spending more of their lives and energy than all of the GD 'family' combined x 100).

These folks the Dead now s**t on royally spent their time...days, nights, weekends....their money.....their expertise....and on and on.......in simple and justified reliance on a mutual ethic of sharing and respect between them and the performers. So who broke the bargain? And why should anyone defend those who did?

Should not everyone who acted on and spent themselves and their resources in reliance on the GD's previously stated ethic/policy have any say over the results it obtained?

The Dead never contributed one second of recorded content to the Archive. They let everyone else spend all of their time, energy, bandwidth, etc. to advertise and organize it for them.......so should we all just crawl away muttering : oh, thank you so much, corporate leftovers of the Grateful Dead, for the times when you actually had a conscience and a worthy ethic? Go cash in now, on us? Does Soundboard Betty (for example) get a cut of all of this? (Hell no, they've given her the same treatment we are seeing brought to this resource. Apparently the Dead 'family' is more like the Mafia....but one that doesn't even take care of its own, dare you cross one of the 'Dons'....just one that is mercenary and quite self-serving, apparently).

I mean, we are talking about content reproducible infinitely for the cost of electricity....how much can anyone legally, much less morally, capitalize on the work of others (tapers, organizers, re-mixers, uploaders, etc.) simply because it captured or improved the historic record of decades-past performances you gave? There has to be a balance struck, and one that is better than what the giant thumb of the GD corporate machine just did to the scale.....intimidating a non-profit they know is too weak to question or challenge this hijacking.

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Poster: helpontheway Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

I agree with the fact that it's really such a shame. What is to be of these wonderful recordings. Is someone going to sit on them?
I think the question that needs to be asked is: What is needed to get these concerts back on the Archive, so that we all can keep enjoying this great GD-music?

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Poster: DEADBUCK Date: Nov 28, 2005 9:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

If the boys are hard up...perhaps they oughta get on the road and sing...I think they oughta start where they left off....somewhere back in good old 1995...say at the gahden in Boston(I know that is selfish of me..lol) any ways...they need to play...all the time...and never mind this what we were attitude...they still can be if they get out and do....and yes I know that Jerry is one of a kind...that doesnt mean that pigpen,keith,brent werent. and yes I would go back to bruce(bias) So get someone who loved Jerry and loves the music the same way...he wont replace Jerry but he can sit in for a while.....I still think Santana is a great guitarist....well what ever....they need to work if they want the money.....thats the bitch of the business...any ways I gotta go burn some downloaded music from some band called the unknowns...hahahaha bitch

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Poster: driversbound Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Never posted, so I like to say thank to the archive. With or without the Grateful Dead- the live music archive is amazing and the work is truly culturally noble.

the grateful dead had the potential to be more of a critical success in the future than during their career via their live legacy and easy access to that legacy by young fans just getting into improvisational music- young fans that may become professors and write books and teach the Dead’s significance. They just diminished that potential by cutting out the archive. Not a move I would make, but I don’t know about the layoffs, etc. so each his own.

can't stamp it out completely, it's futile,they know that.

It is pretty damn ironic that the first thing one sees on dead.net is:

“Bring the Music Back”

I want to see what Robert Hunter has to say about this.
he's one of the "entities" as far as I know. I would like to see someone from the creative force of that band say something.

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

This is from dead.net:

http://www.dead.net/hotline_info/NEW_DOCUMENTS/mp3.html

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Poster: Salt Lake City Library Boy Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

The policy linked above is now (obviously) oudated. My source and Rolling Stone are indicating there will be a statement from the Band this week...

http://deadnews.blogspot.com

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

The point of the post is to show that this was not something that just happened out of no where last week. This is something that has been in the works and had even been posted on dead.net.

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Poster: Cosmicharley Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

I have yet to see anywhere a posting by anyone connected with the decision to stop allowing downloads of GD SBDs which states that the sbds will be for sale at any price. The only comment is that they are to be removed from the LMA to another site, presumably set up in a similar fashion to this one.

While I'm dissapointed that just in time for me to get a better price on my ISP I fail to grab my chance at extra shows for the car, I can only wait in anticipation for the day when I am able to get these shows even quicker by a slightly different method.

Really, after just a week a lot of vitriol has been aimed at the good ol' Grateful Dead without anyone really knowing their plans.
They always reserved the right to stop any trading in their shows, and the simple act of trading a B+P cassette was comfirmation that you agreed to this stipulation.

LMA is still working hard to bring other stuff, so enjoy.

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Poster: chuck35 Date: Nov 29, 2005 9:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

Thanks to all those at the archive, you helped an old dude remember some fine times when he was young, single and not known as "dad". I feel for those who put in so much hard work and would love to hear GDP's official stance on what it is they are doing and why? Is it all about money? If it is than that's real sad. Well it's all too clear we're on our own. Ashes ashes all fall down. Oops is that an infringement.

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 28, 2005 4:47am
Forum: etree Subject: P.S.

I am always willing to put my money/time where my mouth is :

I am willing to gather information and start listing, compiling for everyone what we all have (I have 100's of Archive DL's on DVD-R's) to get together all of us who would rather just leave this site to its devices and put the material back out there for free, by numerous digital means (please no more talk of tapes and B&P.....I mean, get real) :

1. Disc to disc trading
2. Hard Drive trading
3. A downloadable website

And you know what, if we have to mark all this content as 'The Unknowns', so be it. We all know. Apparently, they don't.

EMAIL THIS ADDRESS (EVEN IF JUST TO GET AN EMAILING LIST TOGETHER, NO COMMENTS NECESSARY IN YOUR EMAIL) : FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

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Poster: 10mileride Date: Nov 28, 2005 5:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: P.S.

Maybe we could get some help from the EFF ;-)

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Nov 28, 2005 8:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: P.S.

Yeah, and a band member is on their board of directors. You're busted on Bourbon Street...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: P.S.

You mean this board member?
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/29/barlow_on_death_of_g.html

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Nov 28, 2005 11:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Archive and GD - FACTS

HighNRGone makes some excellent points and brings up interesting questions.

What we should really be looking at is the anti-bootlegging statute:

US 2319A. Unauthorized fixation of and trafficking in sound recordings and music videos of live musical performances3
(a) Offense. - Whoever, without the consent of the performer or performers involved, knowingly and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain -

(1) fixes the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance in a copy or phonorecord, or reproduces copies or phonorecords of such a performance from an unauthorized fixation;

(2) transmits or otherwise communicates to the public the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance; or

(3) distributes or offers to distribute, sells or offers to sell, rents or offers to rent, or traffics in any copy or phonorecord fixed as described in paragraph (1), regardless of whether the fixations occurred in the United States;

shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years or fined in the amount set forth in this title, or both, or if the offense is a second or subsequent offense, shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years or fined in the amount set forth in this title, or both.

(b) Forfeiture and Destruction. - When a person is convicted of a violation of subsection (a), the court shall order the forfeiture and destruction of any copies or phonorecords created in violation thereof, as well as any plates, molds, matrices, masters, tapes, and film negatives by means of which such copies or phonorecords may be made. The court may also, in its discretion, order the forfeiture and destruction of any other equipment by means of which such copies or phonorecords may be reproduced, taking into account the nature, scope, and proportionality of the use of the equipment in the offense.

(c) Seizure and Forfeiture. - If copies or phonorecords of sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance are fixed outside of the United States without the consent of the performer or performers involved, such copies or phonorecords are subject to seizure and forfeiture in the United States in the same manner as property imported in violation of the customs laws. The Secretary of the Treasury shall, not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of the Uruguay Round Agreements Act, issue regulations to carry out this subsection, including regulations by which any performer may, upon payment of a specified fee, be entitled to notification by the United States Customs Service of the importation of copies or phonorecords that appear to consist of unauthorized fixations of the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance.


Critical here, of course, is the element of permission. If you are not given permission to record, you are an infringer. But if you were given permission, it is a whole other ball game.

Based on the plain language of the statute, neither any of us or the archive, is infringing in any way- based on the oft stated policy of the GD. Tapers were allowed to plug in to soundboards. The band knew it was getting free marketing. It was a symbiotic relationship.

This whole thing brings up novel issues in copyright, and I would love to see someone file an action just to see what affirmative defence the GDP folks will give.

The novelty is this- Have we not been partaking of "fair use" of this material? Illegal bootleggers always existed, and they were always prosecuted if caught. This has not changed. But we are not doing this.

The biggest question is whether or not these shows are in the public Domain as a result of being in circulation for so long with the bands permission. It is this permission that is the crux of the whole case. In a sense the band has been licensing these shows to us, and is now revoking the license.

But like the initial poster said, they will need to prove on a show by show basis that they did indeed create that music.

More tomorrow

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 28, 2005 9:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Go Ask Alice

like the initial poster said, they will need to prove on a show by show basis that they did indeed create that music.

I haven't yet felt like the whole fabric of reality was twisting here, until I read this. Did we eat the brown acid?

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 12:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Oh, Please.....

I think the point of this that you missed entirely (or you wouldn't be reading any of this) is that you all just took it at face value that the 'Grateful Dead' have the right to roll you like a drunken bum without the slightest explanation and ZERO RESPECT to anyone (you or your constituents) even within the context of your own 'respect' policy.

If they gave you no reasonable or rational explanation, shame on you for being so vapid and cute about all of this and for not standing up in the face of clearly questionable demands.

But if they did give you one (regardless of what their heretofore secret plans are) shame on you for not telling us and for disrespecting your community of donors and patrons. As one poster said previously, what exactly do you owe them in terms of confidentiality?

The game is over, don't you get it? Are you hoping by keeping their secrets we're all going to have a 'do-over'? If you do, I think we know who ate the brown acid.

Either way, you owe everyone better than this....so spare us the drug references and for once, GET REAL with all of this.

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 08:31:50

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 29, 2005 12:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

hey what happened to "they win"
time to back off and go find your dead some other place.
i know i am tired of your usless crying. and yes it sounds like you are whining like a little baby girl...
the archive is doin what they should ..time to move on!!

sorry diana for this post!


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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:46pm
Forum: etree Subject: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Sheesh, fishead, do you have anything to say of any substance whatsoever?

The outrage of folks like me is meant to raise awareness, put up a fight, and maybe move events (back) in a positive direction for this community (in action, not words, by the way). By positive I don't mean sedating myself or disconnecting my brain or posting pointless personal jabs at those (unlike you) who care enough to raise a ruckus. 'They Win' was not referring to you, much as I am sure you would like to think you have, with the death of this resource.

You want everyone to just keep to themselves and lie down with the dogs. Well, with no due respect....no thanks. Every time I have tried to find a scintilla of justification or any benefit to give for my doubts I am left with nothing except the belief that this is just dirty business and worth a sustained campaign.

So, once again, my armchair critic friend, if you have something intelligent to write on the point here, do so....I haven't seen one from you yet, but you still can redeem yourself. Otherwise we know your allegiance and are quite acquainted with your pleasant demeanor as a personal vigilante for the opposition.

FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 22:46:26

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

I found this "official" statement from dead.net and I don't believe it is recent, looks like it was a decision that was made back in the spring.

http://www.dead.net/hotline_info/NEW_DOCUMENTS/mp3.html

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Wow, thanks for the link. This 'Doney' guy sounds like a real class-A [fill in the blank for yourself].

However he really shot himself with this line :

"Only live recordings are sanctioned by this initiative, Doney said. The Grateful Dead will continue to aggressively prosecute any web site operators or any other businesses trafficking in Grateful Dead studio recordings, which are protected under U.S. copyright laws, Doney said."

In totality this paragraph essentially says that live recordings are not like studio recordings, which are protected by copyright law. Or more succinctly, live recordings are NOT protected by copyright law....at least not these. Otherwise why be redundant in stating what is copyright protectable?.

They know how thin the ice is for them with all of this long-public live material. That's why they have a lawyer making these statements, rather than the band members or legitimate reps we all know....it is a tacit threat that you will be legally pursued if you don't just drink their kool-aid. Well, to Mr. Doney, I hope you have the rest of your life to work on this and an enormous retainer from the 'Grateful Dead' to do so, because you aren't going to stop anyone from doing what we have for decades....in very public and high-tech fashion.

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

no s**t sherlock. i know "they win" doesnt refer to me. but i wasnt the one on here waving the white flag and am now back crying the blues.
maybe you should try crying over at deadnet. this place isnt just for deadheads. this site is filled with tons of other great artists.and why do you keep giving diana a hard time this site wasnt setup for you /you really need to get some crackers with that whine....

oh poor baby no more dead shows here wha..wha..need a binky



This post was modified by Fishead on 2005-11-29 10:43:15

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Nicely done! Very impressive. Well thought-out. They should add that to the Archive under a new section for 'Intelligent Posts from the Omniscient Judgmental Mature'.

Sorry, 'Fishead', not taking the bait.....though it is really fun to see how this just burns you up.

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 10:57:20

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

what happened to changing all of your posts
to " they win" . yep ..i thought so...

dude,your agenda is with the dead. take your beef over to them. time to leave these good folk here at LMA alone . you keep attacking them coming up with stupid remarks and then post some stupid rant and then expect the mods here to respect you. i know i would be deleting all of your b.s.
remarks towards diana and the LMA...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: shh

Cool it please guys, thanks! Move on now.

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

burn, baby, burn.....fishead inferno.....

Sorry, that was immature, but I couldn't resist a little levity.....

And sorry, fish, I am here to stay and will beat this drum as long as it takes.....so get used to it.

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 29, 2005 8:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

dude, beat the drum all you want but there is no need to beat it over diana's head or the LMA . they care like u do . you want dead shows back thats good . i dont think u are goin about it the right way ,david gans doesnt,mcnally doesnt and probably everyone who is associated with the dead doesnt agree with the reactions. you really think demanding the shows back will make them do so . i don't and i cant wait to hear the bands reaction .hopefully it will be one you like.//
i would tell you to try and fight it in court. the shows were only to be avail by trade thats it. no more . the internet has taking it to another level .they have every right to not want their music hosted here .and i would fight you until you are broke.
now why not download a great sounding radiators show from this great site the archive. too bad your band dont let you download shows anymore.. :)

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Lets tie this nasty fishead in a trap where belongs. The commercial boats finally went out from northern California ports. The dungenous crabs can pinch his little fanny...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD attorney remarks- 1999

I don't believe it is recent, looks like it was a decision that was made back in the spring.

You're correct it's not recent, it was back in the spring of 1999.

...Wayback backs me up. Compare these:
http://www.dead.net/hotline_info/NEW_DOCUMENTS/mp3.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.dead.net/hotline_info/NEW_DOCUMENTS/mp3.html

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 11:02:45

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Poster: gdeadmatt Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: GD attorney remarks- 1999

Thanks Diana.

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Poster: ztheday Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

From the way I read that, any music recorded by fans can be freely distributed in lossy mp3 format. Does that mean we can put all these shows back on in mp3 format? Is the issue only with lossy files? I mean, I would love to trade lossless format shows with people, but I would also love the ability to dl in lossy format. I'm not that concerned with the purity of lossless. I think mp3 still captures the magic, and I'm content with that.

Help me understand, but I don't think this is the same statement that has caused the change to occur here at the Archive.

This post was modified by ztheday on 2005-11-29 09:51:29

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Do you have anything to say of any substance whatsoever?

We went over that together in a previous thread, and as you probably recall we both deleted away what we had written on the subject upon further reflection.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 09:43:31

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

Diana,

Apologies if you thought that post about 'substance' was referring to you. It was not. It was a reply to the post immediately above. Only the last line was directed to you.

I can say you have never gotten nasty, like many who seem to be your vigilantes. I understand why they want to do it, but maybe you should simply stick to moderating rather than weighing in.

The deafeningly limp silence from Archive about what went on behind all of this is perhaps best left that way....silent. Your sidebar comments are only inciting people like me who believe you are hardly neutral in all of this.

Still, I respect your diligence if not your tact.

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 10:13:46

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

GET REAL with all of this

Says a still-pseudononymous poster...

I can recycle a punchline I just saw in Candorville the other day:

"[buncha spew]

Respectfully,
Name Withheld"

or you wouldn't be reading any of this

I've told you why I read any of this: Part of my little mission to try to maintain or reestablish overall forum health and usability. Luckily most people *are* starting to calm down a bit by now and move on. Want to re-calm down like before? Thanks if so, sir!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 08:46:35

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Poster: bonk Date: Nov 29, 2005 1:55am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

Diana,
I think you guys do a wonderful job here.Dont let anybody get you down!There is so much good music here besides the GD.These people that are nasty really dont get it.I love the Gd like the next person but come on....When i see these nasty post,it makes me feel like pepole just dont see the whole picture....Music is beautiful and anger has no place here in the archive.

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Poster: fiyo fiyo Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

this site is all about the dead... i agree upon alot of other good music... but 90% of people who use the archives are searching for live dead... oh and btw... considering the settlement posted on dead.net does anyone know if and when the shows are going to be posted back on for d/l? and another quick question... i see all the soundboards were removed... but how come we can't d/l and burn the audience tapes? it's not like they're going to release audience tapes?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

this site is certainly not "all about the dead." however, if even close to 90% of its users are downloading GD - i almost cant blame the Archive if it was the Archive itself who canned the deal. I cannot imagine them paying for massive amounts of bandwidth "just for the GD." They may not even want them back up.
i certianly dont blame them for no advanced warning - can you even imagine the bandwidth "suck" if us heads had known a few weeks ahead of time.

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Good Point

Now that's the most logical hypothetical explanation to Archive's actions here yet. Maybe they are all-too-happy to see the GD's material vanish...along with all of the bandwidth its constant transfer surely demanded.

If that were really behind why they did this I could accept their decision and move on in a heartbeat......if they were honest enough to just come out and say it.

But shallow, empty half-explanations, inexplicable secrecy over the details, and rather self-serving shifting of blame just stokes the fires.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Poor conspiracy theory

No, I can truthfully attest that people at IA are bummed out, not happy. :(

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 11:06:51

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:48pm
Forum: etree Subject: FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

I keep saying it, but it bears repeating : RESPECT IS A TWO-WAY STREET. When will the the Grateful Dead earn theirs by showing Archive and everyone else a little?

Join a now nearly 40 person list interested in taking all of our music 'to the streets', free to the world.....again.

FREEDEAD2005atYAHOO.COM

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-11-29 22:48:15

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Poster: SpotTheLooney Date: Nov 29, 2005 5:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Poor conspiracy theory

I know you're bummed Diana,but what we need is for you to be 100% on OUR side and AS angry as we are....Anything else is just BS...Like Dubya said"You're either with us,or you're with the terrorists"....No Middle here....Editing posts just de values the entire thread...It's NOT a nice subject,so why should we talk nice? You're being like Tom on the Howard Stern show...Chill sista...
Much Love

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Poster: Salt Lake City Library Boy Date: Nov 29, 2005 2:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

My source told me that the Dead will release a statement probably this week. This was also just reported by Rolling Stone. I think everyone needs just stand-by until the facts have been reported.

http://deadnews.blogspot.com

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Rolling Stone Coverage

Cool, thanks for that news! (Hey, and double cool for me to see Benjy's byline there.) :)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 11:16:38

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Poster: hjl1450 Date: Nov 29, 2005 12:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

Diana, you're too funny! This is getting better by the minute. Take the rest of the week off....You deserve it!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 29, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Oh, Please.....

I just have to wonder..... Diana, do you ever sleep?? Thanks for the hard work and patience :)

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Poster: Liamfinnegan Date: Nov 29, 2005 5:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Drug Free Opinion

What I stated earlier about the dead having to prove they created the music was meant to be taken in an epistemological sense- of course they performed, but legally they would have to vouch for all the recordings. No brown acid here.

After even more research, I have found that there is very little case law at all on this situation. Prior to 1994, there was no federal legislation at all regarding bootlegs of live performances. Before that year, bootlegging was regulated on a state by state basis, so you could have different rules in each state the band played in.

In 1994 the US became a signatory to the GATT treaty, and one result of this was the passing of the anti-bootlegging statute. You can all look this up. Essentially, live performances of music are NOT copyright protected, at least not according to the 3 law suits that have been decided on the issue (one of the involved the band Kiss- the others I will mention later- I will even give the cites to the judges opnions)

In fact, when the anti-bootlegging statue was composed, it was meant to go under title 15 in the commerce clause area, as the writers of the statute felt that a live musical performance could never be a "writing" as defined in the copyright act. Now "writing" has been extended to visual arts and Phonographic reproductions of studio sessions, but it has never been extended to live musical performances.

We have a different animal here, and it is even more different in that the tapers had PERMISSION. That the band posted on their web site last spring that they retained the "right" to pull "their" boards off web sites has nothing to do with the legal reality.

Their lawyers must know that they are in a very gray area- but rule of thumb when you are a lwayer is never ever in a million years admit that you are operating in a gray area. Make everything you write sound like it has the force of legal precedent. It is a trick learned in every one's first legal writing class.

I welcome anyone to verify my research and come to a different conclusion- start out by putting "anti-bootlegging statute" in google- and then go from there.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 6:11am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Drug Free Opinion

That the band posted on their web site last spring

Correction from elsewhere in the thread: That was Spring 1999.

Their lawyers must know that they are in a very gray area- but rule of thumb when you are a lwayer is never ever in a million years admit that you are operating in a gray area. Make everything you write sound like it has the force of legal precedent.

Chuckle, QED on this forum this week, eh? ;)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-29 14:11:59

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Poster: davidbarfield Date: Nov 29, 2005 6:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Drug Free Opinion

exactly. and, i'll add that there's another aspect a friend mentioned (a contract lawyer): if somone on the board (sound, that is) gave out a patch to said-dead-head, that recording is similarly "sanctioned" by the organization and would fall under the same interpretation as a mic in the air t/s recording.

i don't think you're trippin', fwiw....

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Poster: Fishead Date: Nov 28, 2005 10:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Go Ask Alice

silly deadheads trips are for kids :)

i think some here have brain freeze.....and dont even realize what they are saying....

real shame you guys have to put up with these comments..

keep up the good work !!!